Here is the second part of our interview with Toyotaro (author of Dragon Ball Super), Kazuhiko Torishima (Akira Toriyama’s legendary editor), and Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru (character designer, animator, and animation director on DB, Z, GT, Super, and Daima). We had the opportunity to meet them at Japan Expo 2025 during a 1.5-hour interview, where they shared their experiences with the Dragon Ball franchise and their collaboration with Akira Toriyama.
Interview with Toyotaro, Torishima, and Nakatsuru at Japan Expo 2025: PART 2
Please do not reproduce this interview. I spent a lot of time writing it.
Question 9: What role do new technologies (CGI, AI, etc.) play in the current and future production of Dragon Ball series and manga?
Torishima: I don’t know much about AI, but I’ll share my thoughts. If we take screentone usage in manga: digital tools have made applying screentones much easier. As a result, more and more artists are filling their pages with increasingly complex screentones. The outcome is that you get pages that look very beautiful and perfect… except now, all artists’ pages look the same.
Toriyama, on the other hand, had no money. He lived in a small province, couldn’t afford fancy tools, and so he did without. He drew his pages in a way that didn’t require screentones. And that’s how he created manga that were very simple and easy to read.
I’m not saying new technology is bad. The problem is that if you don’t use your head to think about how to use the tools, you end up becoming a tool of the tool.
For me, the most important thing in manga is the character. So it’s crucial to focus on character expression. The problem is, even if AI can reproduce a character, there are limits to what it can deliver in terms of expression. For example, AI can create characters in the Ghibli style, but it can’t reproduce the eyes the way Miyazaki draws them.
Toyotaro: Going back to Dragon Ball Super: SUPER HERO, Toriyama’s character designs were made so well that you can see them clearly from any angle. I think it was a great idea to adapt them into CGI. SUPER HERO is a great experience in that field.
That said, I wouldn’t want everything to move in that direction. I think production methods should be diversified. The issue with CGI is the risk of making Toriyama-sensei’s linework look too harsh, even though his style is very soft. Another issue with fully computer-generated backgrounds is that they can become too detailed, which doesn’t suit Toriyama’s art style.
Torishima: To sum up what Toyotaro is saying, it’s like trying to make gekiga using a ruler.
Note from DB-Z.com: Gekiga is a manga style from the 1950s-60s, more realistic, expressive, emotional. So using a cold and rigid tool like a ruler contradicts its essence. It’s as if Torishima is saying: “You want to create something lively and expressive, but you’re approaching it like a technician, not an artist.”
Toriyama drew everything freely by hand, and there was always a sense of lightness and fluidity in his linework. I think CGI is not suited to his style.
Nakatsuru: While working on Dragon Ball DAIMA, I felt that traditional animation is very labor-intensive and time-consuming. So if we find the right way to work, I believe CGI—and even AI—could help us work more efficiently and allow us to create more elaborate anime that could appeal to a broader audience, if used correctly. That’s what I hope. As Torishima said, we have to think carefully about how to use tools, so we don’t become slaves to them.
Toyotaro: I once tried asking ChatGPT for story ideas, but it was just a waste of time. (laughs)
[Note from DB-Z.com: Obviously, this is Toyotaro making a humorous remark. Please don’t distort his words on social media.]
Question 10: In 2020, you said in an interview with Hiroshi Matsuyama that there was nothing to learn from Dragon Ball. That statement caused a stir. Could you explain it?
Torishima: That statement caused a stir? How?
(Follow-up): People think there are values in it like kindness, courage, etc.
Toriyama and I love Tom and Jerry, the American cartoon. It’s very simple: the cat chases the mouse. That’s the story. You watch it for fun, but at the end, there’s nothing to learn. In animation, the key is « characters + movement. » In manga too, when you read it, it’s fun, but there’s nothing left in the end. Earlier, I explained that Toriyama and I always looked for what was interesting. And in the end, we found this answer: the goal is to “read for fun, and retain nothing.”
Creating a character is a simple thing. Even a child can do it. There are many manga out there with complex and difficult themes. They don’t make you want to read them. The other day I talked with someone from the German publishing house, and he said Attack on Titan made a lot of noise, but in the end, the manga didn’t sell that well. After the anime ended, the manga stopped selling. But look at Dragon Ball and Naruto—they keep selling even after the anime is over. So what’s the difference? In Dragon Ball and Naruto, readers experience the world through the character’s eyes. It’s not so much about the story itself, but the fact that the reader is taken on a journey by the character. Thanks to that simple structure, both adults and children are captivated.
“We drink Coke and Orangina because they taste good. But when we’re thirsty, we drink water.”
Question 11: You started out by making fan manga before becoming the official Dragon Ball Super mangaka. What advice would you give to someone who wants to make their own manga?
Toyotaro: I don’t think I’m in a position to give much advice. I was a huge fan of Toriyama’s work, and I sort of appropriated his universe without permission to tell my own stories, in my own way and with my own art. I became a mangaka to draw Dragon Ball, not the other way around. So I’m not sure I can give lessons to those who want to become mangaka. But if someone really wants to draw Dragon Ball, it might be interesting to do it the way I did and show your work to Shueisha to see what happens.
Torishima: When young people ask me at conventions, I always say there are three things you need to become a mangaka:
- Study Japanese and literature seriously. You need to master words to use them effectively in dialogue. A story is built through dialogue. You need a sense for wording and style. Frankly, I think the literary level of most manga today is quite low.
- Make a lot of friends. Humans are interconnected. Drawing manga is drawing the world.
- Show strength. When a mangaka faces a blank page, he must create a universe. That requires tremendous energy.
If you have these three, you can take the path to becoming a mangaka.
Nakatsuru: When I met Torishima, I told him I’d be interested in drawing manga if I got the chance. Later, I got the opportunity to continue the Dr. Slump manga in V-Jump [under Toriyama’s supervision]. What I learned from that experience is that being a mangaka is a very tough job.
Torishima: On the plane, we read a long article about Toriyama. In it, Toriyama said to Nakatsuru, “You’re amazing.” Nakatsuru asked why. Toriyama replied that in The Return of Dr. Slump, Nakatsuru used angles that Toriyama never did. Toriyama said: “A mangaka always draws angles he’s used to. Drawing other angles is a real chore.” Mangaka usually draw characters from the front, rarely from the back. But in animation, you often have to draw characters from behind, because the camera moves in all directions. Nakatsuru can draw from many angles Toriyama didn’t. If you look at Nakatsuru’s manga, it has way more camera angles than Toriyama’s. That’s where you see the difference between an animator and a mangaka.
Question 12: The Dragon Ball franchise has evolved a lot. Some compare it to Star Wars—with both good and bad. How do you see its future as a franchise?
Torishima: You’re asking us? That’s really a question for Shueisha, or Toei Animation, or whoever manages Mr. Toriyama’s rights.
Originally, Dragon Ball was a story Toriyama and I made together, but that’s only one side of the coin. The other side is the fans. We built and expanded Dragon Ball’s world thanks to fan support. If the franchise grows by listening to fans, that’s great. But if the goal is to grow it just for money, then everything will collapse. I hope it doesn’t go in that direction.
Question 13: What do you think of how Trunks and Goten are handled? In Dragon Ball Super, they’re often portrayed as comic relief, while in the Buu arc, it felt like a passing of the torch.
Torishima: [He doesn’t want to comment. He gestures toward Toyotaro, signaling that it’s his domain, as Goten and Trunks’ development is in his hands.]
Toyotaro: In Dragon Ball Super, I did three chapters focused on Trunks’ development. He’s a character I really like, and I was happy to write stories with him as the main character. I’d love to do more.
However, I feel I didn’t do a great job portraying Goten in those chapters, and I’d like to have a chance to do better in the future.
Nakatsuru: As an animator, I’m not involved in story development, so I never know how characters will evolve.
Question 14: There’s a lot of debate around what’s considered canon or not—especially with Dragon Ball DAIMA. How do each of you view the concept of canon?
Note from DB-Z.com: Torishima didn’t understand the word “canon” at first. Once we explained it as “event chronology,” he laughed when he realized what the question was about.
Torishima: I’ll just give my personal view. First of all, Toriyama was very messy. He often forgot character continuity. Second, he was always focused on what would make fans happy. So he made up stories without worrying too much. In short, there’s no continuity or timeline—period.
Toyotaro: I love almost everything in the Dragon Ball universe. For me, everything is kind of canon because I’ve seen it all. But it’s not my role to decide what’s canon. I think it’s better if each fan decides what is or isn’t canon for themselves. For example, I used to play Dragon Ball Online, and that’s canon to me too.
[Note from DB-Z.com: Toyotaro did indeed use the word “canon” (カノン, kanon) in Japanese.]
Nakatsuru: I’m not really sure either…
Question 15: For all three of you—what was your working relationship with Akira Toriyama like? Do you have any anecdotes?
Nakatsuru: I haven’t seen Toriyama in about 20 years. On Dragon Ball DAIMA, I exchanged emails with him about character designs—I’d send sketches, he’d send corrections, ask for revisions… We communicated quite a bit, and I was happy because it had been a long time since we’d worked like that. Toriyama passed away during DAIMA’s production, and I worked very hard to reflect his vision as much as possible in the project.
Torishima: Toriyama hated working, but he loved drawing. Being a mangaka was a job to him, so he always wanted to finish quickly to go have fun. For example, drawing the big Tenkaichi Budokai arena was a chore, so he made Krillin destroy it so he wouldn’t have to draw it again. He didn’t like coloring in black either [because it’s time-consuming], which is why Super Saiyan hair is white in the manga. He was a true artist, doing the least possible work. He was also very fast—he finished his weekly Dragon Ball work in just one day! The rest of the week he’d spend having fun. For instance, he spent a lot of money restoring his car, a Jaguar Mark 2. He tested every color imaginable. His friend Masakazu Katsura helped by drawing 4000–5000 color variations. The funniest part? When asked which color he chose, Toriyama said: “Turns out the first one I picked was the right one.” That’s the kind of thing he’d do after finishing his manga.
Toyotaro: About what Torishima said—how Toriyama didn’t like working—one day Toriyama told me: “Battle scenes are easier for me to draw, so I always try to start fights quickly—it’s just simpler.” That surprised me, and I replied: “Wait, what!? That’s not easy at all! It’s not simple for me!”
Torishima: Maybe because battle scenes don’t require backgrounds.
Question 16: Who were the artists behind the harmony cells?
Note from DB-Z.com: In animation, harmony cells are painted layers used to add visual effects, sometimes in watercolor style, for lighting, highlights, or subtle gradients, applied over regular animation cels.
Nakatsuru: I think the names of the background artists are listed in the ending credits of each episode. The main drawings were done by those listed, especially the art director of each episode. I know the principle of harmony—where a drawing becomes something more like a painted background—so you can look into the credits for those handling backgrounds. But I don’t recall that many harmony cells being used in DBZ, and I don’t remember any specific names.
Torishima: Oh, I just learned what harmony means!
Nakatsuru: I don’t know the names, but I can confirm they came from the background and art direction departments, so look at those credits.
And that’s it for our 1.5-hour interview with Toyotaro, Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, and Kazuhiko Torishima. We hope this gave you some new insights, and keep your eyes open—other major media outlets like France Info have also shared interviews with the team from Japan Expo.